Exploring AI, Tech, and Workforce Education with Paul Fain

Work Forces

Paul Fain is a journalist and the creator of The Job. In this year-end episode, Paul discusses workforce education and training, with a focus on sectors like manufacturing, healthcare, and tech. He shares the impact of policies like the CHIPS Act on job opportunities, especially for low-income workers, and the role of community colleges in workforce development. Our conversation also explores the effects of AI and technology on jobs, the need for flexible education models, and the importance of policy and government support in these initiatives.

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Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Workforces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Let's dive in.

Julian: Today, we're excited to speak with Paul Fain. Paul is a journalist focused on the nexus between education and work. He writes The Job, a newsletter that explores these issues, and helped create a related weekly publication, Work Shift. From 2011 to 2020, Paul was a reporter and editor at Inside Higher Education. He oversaw the news outlet's coverage of low-income students, college completion, community colleges, federal policy, and emerging models of higher ed. And, Paul, I think it's fair, I believe it's fair to say that you are, if not, the preeminent writer on workforce and education and the future of work and learning. So we are thrilled to have you here and welcome to our pod.

Paul Fain: Great to be here. Good to see you, Julian. Hello, Kaitlin. And, I don't know if I'm the preeminent, but I'm one of the few. Let's put it that way. It covers these issues.

Kaitlin: Well, thanks so much for joining us, Paul. It really is a privilege to have the chance to speak with you today. To kick us off, can you tell us a bit about your story and your background?

Paul: Yeah, I was a traditional higher education trade publication journalist for about 20 years, first at The Chronicle. And, as Julian said, Inside Higher Ed for a decade. You know, really focused on the open access institutions, the underserved student populations almost entirely at Inside Higher Ed. And increasingly felt, as my editors there did as well, that this space, workforce education and training, was where a lot of the action is. It's really hard to cover. It's really hard to get your arms around. One of the reasons, as you know very well, that it's hard to make progress here is there's a lot of silos. There’s education, there's K-12, there's non-traditional providers, there's employers, there's policy states, federal. So you really need a broad lens. And about, you know, mid-pandemic, I decided to go it alone and start an independent publication where I could really have the freedom to do that. And to focus on, sometimes, postsecondary pathways that aren't about traditional colleges, to really look at the whole panoply of options right now.

Julian: So Paul, when you think back on the year, what are some of the biggest trends you've seen in your reporting?

Paul: The most encouraging, exciting, where there's potential scale and money and opportunities for lower income working learners would be the new industrial policy from the federal government. You know, the Chips Act, a lot of advanced manufacturing with infrastructure money as well for EVs. So, you know, some hope on restoring that sort of manufacturing core to this country. I mean, I don't need to tell you guys again, these aren't gonna be the number of jobs we used to have. I'm from Ohio and there were a lot of jobs that you could get with a high school education that would have a family sustaining wage. But, that's probably not going to happen. But we're talking about substantial opportunities. And, what's really exciting to me about this, again, is focusing on the working learner. The, you know, CHIPS Act with Intel in Ohio, for example, they're talking about 70% of those jobs going to folks with community college credentials. So, that's where I'm focused on opportunities for folks who don't have the four year degree. And so that would be one of the biggies. And there are several others, but I don't know if you want to stop on that one for a bit.

Julian: Yeah, no, no. Well, that is a big one. And I guess a question about that is, so yes, there is substantial resource being put into the CHIPS Act. And yes, we'll be training, presumably, folks for community college, you know, credentials for those jobs. Do we have the infrastructure to do it? Are we set up to do it? Are we, you know, are we ready to take on the challenge? Paul: Yeah, I mean, I think that's with all of this. It's gonna be hard for us to build those pathways, those opportunities to identify folks who wanna do it. I mean, with all of this work, it's can we actually deliver on the workforce education? That's the linchpin to making it work. And, you know, there are some initial problems, you know, and some of the providers we're seeing, I think in Arizona, they've already started to struggle a little bit with some of their targets. That said, I don't know, I hear a lot of optimism. I, you know, in Ohio, in particular, Arizona too, you're really seeing colleges stepping up, working together, doing things differently. You know, I am cautiously optimistic that we're going to see some real opportunities for people. Good careers, family sustaining wages. What's really interesting to me though, it's like, it's not just you know, create the programs and train the people and we're good to go. It's, this is about career exploration too. Starting early, you know, it's gotten a lot of attention. But this 10-day course in Arizona, the Maricopa Community College created for semiconductor technicians, you know, 10 days, what can you really learn there? You know, a community college leader told me it's like an extended job interview. You wear the bunny suit, you know, you learn about the shifts, and you kind of figure out is this right for you. And it's bite-size, it's very affordable, it's subsidized by the industry. Those sort of, you know, we use this phrase a lot, but the on-ramps. I feel like this work will show us kind of how to do that at scale in ways we haven't seen before.

Kaitlin: Well, it's interesting to think about that across industries too. What does that look like in different industries and different models across the landscape of workforce education? I mean, are there any other examples, Paul, that you would raise? I think this Ohio example is a great one, but is there another innovative model that comes to mind?

Paul: Yeah. And I think, you know, it's funny how consistent this has been in the stories that come to me. Advanced manufacturing, healthcare, and tech. And I mean, tech careers broadly, IT help desk, data science, entry level tech jobs. Those are the three industries where you see the most urgency to fill positions, and the most likely state and federal government subsidies and employers trying creative things. So almost everything I write that seems new and exciting is in that spot. And you know I was just talking about a kind of small industry but a really exciting one, the optics manufacturing. So this is like lenses we use lenses and everything now it's so much more than you think right, and if like you get a one-year certificate or a two-year degree you're pretty much guaranteed a really well-paying job in that industry. So I was talking with Valencia College in Florida, and they've created among many kind of on-ramp programs, a 15 week program for optics technicians through their continuing ed division. And it's that same sort of thing. Like, I actually asked the folks there, like, this sounds a little like a pre-apprenticeship. You know, it's, and they didn't disagree with that. I mean, the employers are going to have to do a lot of training once those people get through that kind of initial preparation. And so, you know, that's manufacturing and manufacturing, you know, in some ways is easier, in some ways it's harder because the lessons don't transfer, right? You don't have as many portable credentials to use another jargony term. Tech is harder. I think in a lot of ways. There are a lot of interesting experiments to do things like that in tech, but it turns out that most of the good jobs are still going to people with, of course, four-year degrees. Even in a lot of the tech jobs, folks who go to selective institutions. Those experiments tend to be smaller that I write about. Health care is fascinating on many levels. You both know this, but I think you're seeing some real potential for stackability, you know for for health care providers looking to help people move from an entry level kind of allied health job into maybe nursing while they work or getting credit for what they learn, etc. So every one of those paths is different but a lot of movement on all three.

Kaitlin: As we're talking about different models, Paul, back to the Valencia College example. Are there other interesting higher ed models that have come to the surface over this past year or things that we should be keeping an eye on?

Paul: Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of jumping into a different space a little bit here, but I feel like, just like with the federal money, that frankly the industrial policy money is gonna come with strings. It's gonna be tied to sectors of high demand and usually there's performance incentives for companies and colleges to get part of that support. You're seeing that in the states too. The big, big example I think a lot of folks are watching is the new community college funding in Texas where it's carrots and sticks here. You've got 30 plus percent overall budget support increase for the Texas community colleges, but generally for credentials of value as the state's going to define them. High demand industries and data results. So, you know, I think just that model that we saw in Virginia with some of the short-term credentials where there's, you know, milestones, where the money kicks in for both the learner and the institutions, where it's ideally tied to industries, where they know there are jobs. I think that's an exciting one. It states moving ahead with investment where they know it’s super high-demand for solutions that can work, and maybe driving some change in the community college sector about where to put resources, about shorter term programs, about transfer credits, etc.

Julian: Yeah, so Paul, what then are some of the challenges that you're seeing in the space? You know, maybe even beginning with the community colleges because, you know, all is not these promising practices.

Paul: No, that's true and you know it's really hard for me to get my arms around that sector which, as you both know well, is enormous. It's like 40% of undergrads, it's more than a thousand institutions. I tend to hear from the really leading edge. Folks who are willing to experiment, willing to change what they do to work really closely with industry, even on things that are controversial like curriculum development. I gather that this does not always work, that there can be a lot of resistance within community colleges. Intellectual property questions about who owns the curriculum if they do work closely with industry. Questions about transfer credit into degrees. It's hard. This is a lot of change, and it's hard for institutions. And when I ask people within the industry, how many colleges are really doing X, Y, or Z kind of best practice that people are excited about, it's usually not a lot. It's 10% overall. And I don’t want to blame community colleges either. Like, I hear these incredibly sad stories of “we started this program and the employers did not hire folks.” You know, the more I've gotten into this topic, we like to kind of blame. Like higher ed used to blame K-12 (still does) for academic preparation. Like, pass the buck a little bit. Now you know of course we know industry says “we don't have enough people who are skilled” blah blah blah. Well you know industry has to step up and get involved too. Like one of the things in Valencia that was so fascinating. I haven't even written this about this yet, but the optics industry program. Like they would not have been able to get this started without outside support from industry, and I believe some federal money, because the equipment is so expensive. So like they got, like apparently a lens grinder is a quarter million dollars. Like if industry and states and the federal government want those sort of programs, they have to help with equipment, with instructors. I mean, a big challenge. It turns out that high demand fields tend to be the ones where it's the hardest to hire and retain instructors, because they can get better paying jobs on the outside. So, generally it's about resources. Sometimes it's about, frankly, institutional change and really realizing that you're going to have to do things differently.

Julian: Thinking even more broadly about your reporting over the year, you've done a lot of writing about new innovations, tech startups, and I'm interested to hear, you know, sort of some of what you're seeing in that space, both successes and challenges.

Paul: You know, I feel self-conscious about trying to write about interesting experiments that are worth watching. I use that phrase a lot, even in the newsletter, and unfortunately a lot of those go belly-up. You know, one of the ones that's really a sad story and it's a complicated one. And frankly, with the demise of local media, it's sometimes hard to know what really happens on the ground. I mean, I'm in DC, I'm a national journalist. So I'm at arm's length of some of the real brass tacks of knowing what's happening. But Bitwise Industries, fascinating coding bootcamp-style model that was also an apprenticeship provider. Like I said, like the tech gigs are tough, right? So, you get trained while you're working on contracts for local companies, nonprofits, et cetera. Bitwise was focused on secondary, tertiary, metro markets. They started in Fresno. I think they had gotten up to like 12. Were in Buffalo, a bunch of interesting places. And had some real scale, like thousands of apprentices and students and complete collapse. It's pretty much gone. That was the end of that model. They got overextended. Who knows what really happened there. But the margins are tight for that sort of thing, especially, and you all know this too, like big tech retrenched in its hiring this year. Like I've heard from tech skills providers that say this was the worst year they've had, even ones who've been around since the Great Recession. And that's like a cascade effect. Like if the big tech companies are laying people off who went to Stanford, those people are going to get other jobs, you know, and it kind of ripples through the system. That said, nothing is easy on this stuff, right? There are still a lot of tech jobs. There are still a lot of tech jobs at non-tech companies. Finance, insurance, everything is a tech job. But it has been a tough cycle for folks who are trying to create alternative training pathways for tech jobs.

Julian: There's so much fluidity in the economy and in these fields. So I mean, I just think what you're describing is, in many cases, these sort of public agencies and even startups just trying to kind of continue to shift and morph to stay current and relevant and hope that the employers will continue to hire.

Paul: Absolutely. And, you know, we've learned this, something we all knew the last couple of years. It's not just the quality of your training. It's not even that and the job placement. It's helping people succeed on the job. It's the wraparound supports that are actually very resource intensive to help people get the full experience of what it's gonna be like to work in that industry while frankly probably working in another job, having kids, having transportation, basic needs problems. So these are resource intensive solutions that typically you require. Like the ones that are promising and that seem to survive, have like lots of pieces are really hard to even describe. Like there's usually public subsidies. Local agencies that help with the wraparound supports education providers, you know, like this full suite of services that tends to be the way that it works best, right?

Kaitlin: It is so incredibly complicated and then I think it makes it harder to figure out how to replicate these models. Because it's like every situation is different. Every region is different, where the dollars come from is different, I mean as you think about these different examples and the ones that have perhaps shut down or are no longer, and some that are maybe more successful. I'm curious to know about the employer role and where you see that working really well. If there are employer partnerships either with universities or other non-traditional providers where it seems like some of those supports are in place, and the connection between the provider and the employer is strong.

Paul: Yeah, definitely. I mean, again, these are, in a lot of cases nascent pathways that haven't reached massive scale. Almost everything I write about is small scale too. But you know, you do see some industries doing a lot more investment in the apprenticeship or kind of non traditional on-ramp training career opportunities. And those tend to be, you know, a lot of in finance, frankly, There are a lot of big, and I'm talking about big companies too. Big kind of tech with a small T finance companies that are trying to diversify, trying to actually make good on the dropping of degree requirements and hiring, etc. But, you know, the small employer, the mid-size employer, that's the bulk of our country. Those are harder to understand. And it's harder for me to kind of, as you say, like each market is different. I talk about this one a lot because it's such a good example. But the Marcy Lab School in Brooklyn, super cool model. Very much demand-driven, very much relationships with employers who are going to hire these folks who are going through a one-year kind of intensive liberal arts grounded college alternative for tech jobs. You know, would that model work in Phoenix or Milwaukee or you know rural Iowa? I don't know, but one of the co-founders talks a lot about how they're gonna focus on Brooklyn and New York City for right now. There's a lot of uniqueness there and there it's working, but I'm not sure that that model, like you could draw things from that model, but it's not clear that it would translate to other places. And just to give like another place where you're seeing interesting progress, I know I'm all over the place, but that's workforce education. Interesting developments in California around tech apprenticeships. And I was thinking about this because of the, you know, asking about employers. California has started to found based on each placement of an apprentice, and that apparently opens the door to the business model for intermediaries that can help make this easy for employers. Like let's be honest, if you're a small employer, like I heard an example, a security company in the Central Valley who's going to hire one or two apprentices a year, you're going to need pretty much that to be a turnkey thing where you have the vetting and pre-training, the paperwork, which apparently is a lot for a registered apprenticeship or for receiving state grants. And apparently, it's starting to work. The California community colleges are developing these. And that is definitely an experiment to watch, and one I think we'll see in other states if it works.

Julian: And not to keep jumping around, but I'd like to bring the conversation back for a minute to policy and government. Because you mentioned CHIPS Act, some of these federal dollars. We can even talk about defense, which has its ManTech initiative. There's a lot of money pouring out of Washington in one form or another that has something to do with this, ranging from Education to Labor to Commerce to et cetera. And I guess I'm just wondering, are there things we could be doing from a governmental or policy level to ensure more growth and sustainability of the kinds of workforce initiatives we're talking about? It feels a little bit like, in so many respects, this is the Wild West from the ground on high.

Paul: Yeah, that's definitely true. And, you know, it's an interesting time because in the pandemic, obviously, traditional higher ed saw that huge amount of federal support, 80 billion-ish of funding, to keep things rolling in an incredibly difficult time with an enrollment collapse, et cetera. But there is this new money. It's not 80 billion, probably, but it is, it's substantial. And, interestingly, you bring up politics and policy, it's bipartisan. I mean, everybody likes apprenticeships. I haven't yet heard someone who doesn't. You know, it's like a weird place in a kind of dysfunctional political discourse where most people see the need here and generally kind of agree on the solutions. It's wacky. And it's exciting, frankly. And you hope it stays that way. And I'm talking states, but also frankly, Congress, like they would have to do some things differently to make sure that a reauthorization of a WIOA Act actually happened in a way like you said to have some guardrails, to have some growth, to have some incentives for people to try new things. So that is a problem. But when I look at like, and Julian you and I've talked about this before, interesting time in that the Biden Administration, you know, you've got your Labor department, you've got your Education department, they're doing what they do, but now the Commerce department is taking the lead on a lot of the industrial policy investments in ways that are pretty unusual and feel fresh and new. Like there's a lot of money being spent to study the models, to figure out what bets to continue to make as this shapes up. Like, to not just throw it out there like we typically do in America. Like it's a voucher. You're a low income, stretched thin American who has gotten zero guidance on what to do. Figure it out. Get one of these grants and, hopefully, you get a job. It's looking like, even Texas, which typically is not politically the place that is agreeing with the Biden administration in a lot of things, is a very similar model, frankly, with community colleges. Like, hey, there's new money here. You're going to have to do some things to prove that it is paying off for taxpayers and students and, frankly, employers.

Kaitlin: So looking to 2024, as we rapidly approach year's end and beyond, we’ve talked a little bit about different industries and you've mentioned the tech industry. It's hard to think about 2024 without thinking about AI and advancements in tech. What do you think we should be paying attention to? What are you seeing? What happened in 2023, and what should we be mindful of as we go into the new year?

Paul: I'm glad you brought that up. I would be very embarrassed if we got through this without spending a good chunk of time on that. You know, like I am not, I am not an early adopter of tech. I am, I am very much an aging person who doesn't understand the modern world in a lot of ways. I will tell you this, I am bullish that this is going to be a big thing. That's the only preconceived notion I bring into my reporting on AI. I've heard enough from people who actually know things to start to see some of the applications and, frankly, the disruptions that are going to be enormous. So the hard part is what? And it literally changes by the week. But like, okay so when ChatGPT hits not even a year ago, right? And everybody freaks out and you've got this kind of general discourse of, and I'm talking in education, of like, “oh no, students are going to cheat on essays”, or like big tech coverage of like the robot apocalypse, the jobs apocalypse, right? Not that much in between. I've talked to folks who are running big K-12 districts or state lawmakers who are even asking me like, hey, what should I be paying attention to? If you're asking me for that, like, oh my gosh, we're in an interesting place. One of the kind of early prognostications was that coding was going to go away. Like period. Like chat GPT can write code so can other AI tools. And so like, oh my gosh, if you're a coding school, you might as well just shut down and blah, blah, blah. That's not, it's not that easy. It never is. Right. So like what we are seeing more now, and I think is getting to be really widely accepted is you can bring an entry level coder up to a mid level with AI as a navigator, a co-pilot. So what does that do to the market for coding? And in the jobs. And if you're running a program to prepare people for that, how do you adjust for that? Like, just that profession, it's going to be really, really wild to watch the next few years. Like the New Yorker had an incredible piece, if you haven't seen it, a Requiem for Coding as a Craft, where it's just one of those things that again makes me bullish on this. Like you can see how this is playing out. Somebody who is a very sophisticated coder or software developer who realizes that his friend who is basically an amateur who plays around with it can surpass him with ChatGPT. You know, it's just there's an enormous enormous potential there. One of the estimates, and I could go on for a long time but I will stop, but like the big consulting firms, the Accentures and Deloittes, they're spending billions of dollars to help prepare companies to deal with this (entities, colleges, K-12). And one of the estimates I've seen is upwards of 40% of your hours in a job will be affected by AI in the next five years. I mean, don't even ask me what went into that. I have no idea. Maybe it's wrong, but let's say it's 20%. Okay, well, that's a big change in society.

Julian: So, Paul, sticking with that theme for a moment, what Is your advice then to the educators and trainers who may be listening to this podcast about, you know, just sort of how do they position their organizations and, you know, to really take greatest advantage of or stay ahead of or as close as possible to the curve with AI?

Paul: It's not easy to prepare for the future right now when it comes to AI. But I do think there are some historical precedents of major technological developments that we can look at for guidance here. And this kind of depends if you think like I do that this is gonna be those once in a generation, maybe once in a lifetime, maybe once even more than that, technological advancements. I mean, there's going to be a bumpy period and then, and this is again me citing people who are smarter than I am about this. And then there's a golden era of opportunity if this goes well, right? So it's getting through this time of transition. And in that phase, oftentimes privileged, wealthy people get the most opportunity out of tools. And so we have to be really mindful, obviously, of making sure that it's not just the students who attend Stanford and Georgia Tech and Duke who are getting trained in AI. Like, you know, one of the quotes I've used that I love is, AI is not going to replace your job. Somebody who knows how to use AI is going to replace you in your job. So you know, for the students being prepared for this, that's A. And making sure that it's equitable to the extent that we can. Making sure that there's state and federal funding to help community colleges meet this moment, etc. But if I was working at an institution to prepare, I would say you've really got to be flexible, you really have to question your belief system about things is enormous is like where is the human piece of something and that is really really hard. So I'm not sure how to do that, but to be able to find good information, to make very tough decisions, without kind of overreacting like that's that's what I feel like the big thing is gonna be here like you’re going to have to do things differently, but you don't want to, you know, like the initial reaction of we should ban this. We saw it here in Congress, you know, like I love this example, like, okay, somebody used ChatGPT to draft something and then turned it in like a legal brief. Would you do that with an intern who is drafting? Like no. There's an overreaction element to all of this. I think for me as a journalist, as I think about next year, finding people who actually know what they're talking about on this one. Like, you know, this is going to be one of those issues that I think people who don't know what they're talking about are going to get exposed pretty quickly. And again, like things are going to move so fast, like things I don't even understand. People tell me like there were bets that smart people were making that have proven to be wrong in the last three weeks because of where some of these big companies have moved.

Kaitlin: And like you said, the pace of change is just so fast. By the time you've caught up you're behind again.

Julian: Yeah exactly but on some level I what I hear you saying is it's you know at this point these really are new tools and trying to understand, you know, how we can use them as tools while trying to keep track of what they are and how they're evolving is really all we can do.

Paul: Yeah, and I feel like, I mean, it's almost ridiculous. Whenever I talk about AI, it's like, so in the clouds, I'm like, is this, should I just shut up here? But you know, when you think about it, it's the framing of how you approach this, the open mindedness of, okay, let's call them tools. I think that's right. I really do. I think I've heard that people who are working in the space who I trust who are smart about this look at it that way. And then kind of dropping, to the extent that you can, your gut response. Like people in …I feel like right now, there’s this plague in America that people have an opinion about everything. Like, tell me something and I'm gonna tell you why it's good or bad. Don't do that on this one. You know, take a beat here. Talk to some more people. Like reflect. Go go on a walk. Because this is gonna be hard. But also it's an opportunity right? Like I mean there are silver linings in a lot of this.

Julian: Oh it's massive. Well I'm getting most of my AI information from my son who is a junior coder who basically tells me that ChatGPT is freeing him up to do higher and higher order work because he just gives the scut work to GPT.

Paul: And you can see a future where that opens up opportunity for people. And that is not what we thought like eight months ago. I mean, maybe I was behind the curve on that. It's fascinating. You should definitely listen to him. He's on the front lines, right? But like, you know, radiology, I heard this from someone recently. You know, community colleges, that's a good profession. That's a good pathway for folks. It's gonna change. I mean, there's so many of them like that. Accounting, you know, on and on and on. And each one of them is very different, you know? I mean, who knows? I think about this a lot for me even. Like you have to think about it for yourself. Like my newsletter today, when I have chat GPT do drafts of things, it's not working. But I have to be open that at some point it probably will be or some tool… Like I'm already changing how I do the newsletter for sure. I had my first AI generated image as the lead art last week, and it's like just trying things and feeling like you don't have to commit fully here, but give it a shot, see if it works, and then adjust.

Julian: It really is an incredibly exciting time in our field. I mean, it's kind of amazing. We went from sleepy town to front and center. And we could argue this is a national security issue. As you say, it's apple pie, it's bipartisan. It's pretty incredible. And so Paul, as we move to wind up this discussion, how can people continue to follow your research and reporting during this very exciting time and what will probably be a blockbuster year in 2024?

Paul: I agree with that. And, you know, well, first of all, I'm bad at the self-promotional piece, but yeah, the newsletter is called The Job and it's available through its sister publication, Work Shift, which, you know, it looks like we're gonna ramp up and try to do more coverage around some of the things we've discussed. But yeah, I agree with you. This is exciting. Like, I think. Unfortunately, it's driven by societal kind of tensions where like the it's never really worked for poor people in this country, but it's really not now. And I think that's what's driving this, a global wealth and income gap that's pretty profound here, but it is global. And I think people are taking it more seriously. You know, we live in a capitalist society, so I think it's because it's going to affect a lot of other facets of society. Like corporate hiring is a challenge right now. And I think that's bringing people to the table in ways that is different. And to your point, I think it's making states think differently. Like I am shocked, and to be hopeful here again, like how similar a blue and a red state can sound on workforce development right now. And it looks like they're studying each other and that's really exciting. You know, the progress in a state like Alabama to do all of the things we've discussed. Data tools, AI, the coming together of all the silos. You know, it's gonna be really fun to see how some of this plays out and it is exciting.

Julian: Great, well, it's been such a pleasure having this conversation with you and really look forward to putting it out there. Thanks for having me, Julian.

Kaitlin: Thanks so much, Paul.

Paul: Thank you.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Workforces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our producer, Dustin Ramsdell. Workforces is available on Apple, Amazon, Google, and Spotify. We hope you will subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends. If you have interest in sponsoring this podcast, please contact us through the podcast notes.