S2:E11 Vigilante Sh!t

Panic Button

The music in this episode is “Let it Burn,” by Oliver / Aberson.

Find the notes and documents referenced in the episode at okappleseed.org/vigilante-shit.

This is the finale of Season Two – we discuss the different measures of justice each survivor got in the courts and we ask: is it enough?

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TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Leslie Briggs, Colleen McCarty, Marci, Heather, Christen, Karrah

Colleen McCarty 00:00

This episode contains references to accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular and language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. We also discuss suicide, sexual assault, addiction and relapse. Please use caution while listening.

Leslie Briggs 00:35

Welcome to the last episode of season two of panic button operational wildfire. Up to now we've been complaining about a system that fails to hold abusers accountable in a meaningful way. We've spoken to survivors, recanters, law enforcement, district attorneys, restorative justice experts, community advocates, and lawyers. We've reached out to Jim and his family, his business partners and generally tried to find anyone we could, who would give us insight into how these events could have unfolded over three decades, three states and many, many victims.

Colleen McCarty 01:12

Today, we're going to take you through the survivors efforts to seek criminal and civil justice through our courts. Even where they were, quote, successful in having charges brought the actual consequences of those charges were relatively minor. When Justice was fleeting, or altogether absent, several of the women turned toward each other and employed tactics that may raise some eyebrows when you hear about them. You've already heard about the flyer and the defamation case that followed. But what about the others? Heather, Marcy, and Christen. What justice have they seen through the courts? What measures have they relied on the courts failed them? What should survivors do when the system that's supposed to advocate for them doesn't is raising the village and assaulting the earth? The only choice left?

Leslie Briggs 02:06

I'm Leslie Briggs.

Colleen McCarty 02:08

And I'm Colleen McCarty.

Leslie Briggs 02:10

This is panic button season two episode 11.

Colleen McCarty 02:13

Vigilante shit

Leslie Briggs 02:16

It might just be easiest to take this pre and post wildfire that is before and after the flyers. Before the flyers Christen suffered her her violent assault in 2015. And you heard those details in Episode Six. But after officer Rusty Shouse found her in the park bloody and afraid he arrested Jim.

Colleen McCarty 02:36

Officer Shouse filed a police report and an affidavit of probable cause. And here's what he wrote on 320 to 2015. At approximately zero to 31 hours. I was on patrol in the city of Cleveland. When I saw black Dodge Charger parked up Billy vessel's Park on West Cherokee Street. I gave the dispatcher the license plate information and advice that I would be making contact with the person in the vehicle. When I approached the vehicle, I saw a woman and I recognized her as Christen Rochelle Norris. Christen had blood on her hands and face and her nose was bleeding. I asked Christen if she was okay. And she said that she had just parked there for a minute before she headed home. I asked Christen if she needed an ambulance. And she said no. I asked her what happened and she seemed reluctant to answer. I told Christen that I could tell something had happened to her and that she was safe. Now if she wanted to tell me what had happened. Christen told me that she had stopped to see a friend during her visit. And he had hit her in the face. I asked Christen who had hit her and she said I'm afraid of him. I told Christen that she was safe again. And if she wanted to tell me what happened, she could. Christen began crying and her nose began to bleed more. I asked her again if she needed an ambulance. And she said no. I asked Christen, who had hit her. And she said Jimmy lumen James Carroll lumen second. I asked Christen if she wanted to file charges against him and she asked what would happen if she did? I asked Christen. If her and Jimmy were dating and she said that they had dated in the past but until tonight she hadn't talked to him in about a month. Christen said that she was coming home from Fairfax when she received a text from Jimmy asking her to come to his house. Christen said that when she got there, Jimmy was in the driveway. And when she pulled up he got into the front passenger side of her car. Christen said that they were talking and Jimmy was placed slapping her. Christen said that Jimmy got mad when she told him to stop. Christen said that Jimmy spilled her pop in the car. And she got out. Christen says that Jimmy got out of the car also, and that is when they thought Christen says that Jimmy grabbed her by the hair and punched her in the face twice and then pushed her face into the ground. Christen said that Jimmy told her to keep screaming and see what that would get at her, Christen says that Jimmy did not want her to leave. So he got into the driver's seat of her car and was arguing that he was not getting out. Christen said that she was finally able to get in the car and when she was able to get into the driver's seat and lock the doors, she left and went to Billy vessel's Park. I asked Christen, how much Jimmy had been drinking and she said it must have been a lot, because he gets to a point that he turns violent. I asked Christen, if she would make a statement about the incident and she said yes, Christen made a written statement and signed to the prosecution notification form indicating that she did want to pursue charges. While speaking with Christen she said that she was still afraid of him and would get a protective order. I photographed Christen's hands and face showing clear sign of assault. Carson's face was swollen and she said that she had bit her tongue when she was being hit. At 03. For six hours, I went to the address and knocked on the door. Jimmy's mother answered. Then I told her I needed to speak with Jimmy. Jimmy came outside and I advised him that he was under arrest for domestic violence. Jimmy was argumentative, but did not resist arrest. I read Jimmy the Miranda warning and asked if he wanted to talk about the incident. Jimmy said no but would not stop arguing. I transported James Jimmy lumen the second to the Pawnee County jail where he was booked in. When I returned to Cleveland I had four pictures from Pawnee deputy Darren var. Now, the pictures were of blood droppings in the driveway at the address and a picture of bloodstained piece of paper with Chris's name on it. The piece of paper is an invoice from Tulsa Hyundai for the Dodge Charger, like Christen was driving. The paper was logged into evidence.

Leslie Briggs 06:46

Again, I like it when the police get it right.

Colleen McCarty 06:50

He did a good job investigating.

Leslie Briggs 06:52

He investigated he gathered evidence got the facts made an arrest. And actually that leads to the prosecution by the Pawnee County District Attorney at the time who was Rex Duncan, who people may recognize his name if you're super into what's going on in the Oklahoma criminal justice world. He is actually the individual who was hired by the AGs office to conduct an independent investigation of Richard Glossip case. And he did find that there was prosecutorial misconduct in that case, and he's a DA, he's a DA. So we applaud Da's who will hold their own accountable for sure. So his his assistant DA files, the charges against Jim for assault and battery. But Christen doesn't feel or did not feel at the time that the DA who prosecuted her case took a very proactive approach. Christen remembers the DA calling her the day before the trial to tell her not to come to court. Ultimately, there was no trial, the DA allowed Jim to plead guilty to misdemeanor A and B and received an 18 month deferred sentence that and, Colleen, Do you want to remind everybody what deferred sentence means?

Colleen McCarty 07:54

Essentially, for a layman? It's like probation. It's it's what we call out time.

Leslie Briggs 07:59

So what's interesting is you often hear this refrain from DBAs. And we've talked about this, that there, it's hard to prosecute these kinds of crimes without a victim willing to testify. But I mean, we have that here. Right. And we still we don't get the day in court, we don't get the trial, we don't really get the kind of punitive justice that we think violent offenders should receive through our criminal justice system, or that a lot of people think, you know, violent offenders should receive. She doesn't get to get up in front of a jury and have the satisfaction of retelling the story. I don't know just like it's unusual that we have, even when you have a willing victim, like in this case, the case still doesn't get kind of the level of prosecution that I think a lot of people want for these cases.

Colleen McCarty 08:48

Yeah. And I'll just say like, for the other side of that argument, it's like, you could have a willing victim and you can have all the evidence that you need. But if the person is willing to make an agreement about a plea recommendation, most of the time, a prosecutor is going to take it because trial is hard. Sure. It's big. It's a heavy lift. It's a very heavy lift, you block off everybody's day for multiple days, the judge, you know, I'm not arguing against going to trial. But from a resource allocation perspective, right. You have hundreds of cases on your caseload, and one person is saying I'm ready to make this go away. I've never seen a district attorney turn away a rec that the person was going to agree to.

Leslie Briggs 09:35

Yeah. So in any event for Christen, that she doesn't she doesn't feel that she she got a resolution that really served justice for her. But So Christen actually turned to the civil courts and filed a negligence claim against Jim and his mother, Pat, and I for me, I think there's something a little bit poetic here of like, you know, Jim does PI cases, he's dealing he's in the negligence world, you know, dealing with all of that and then he gets hit with One and his mom gets hit with one and they have to, you know, figure out how to provide a monetary resolution to the assault that he perpetrated. That's a form of justice, right?

Colleen McCarty 10:10

I think most people would say, yes. And they would say, drop it now, like you won, you got the settlement, and you gotta get you got a guilty plea in your and in your criminal case.

Leslie Briggs 10:22

Justice or not justice. Justice is

Colleen McCarty 10:26

really complicated. It's very particularized to the person. And yet it's also very universal. What we've heard from our restorative justice experts, is that a lot of pieces of the legal system actually exacerbate a feeling of injustice, and exacerbate a feeling of non closure, I guess. Because the person is incentivized to never tell you what happened. They're never gonna apologize for what happened, that would be incriminating. I mean, I guess unless they take a plea. But he never apologized. He just took the plea and went on probation. Yeah, I think it continued, frankly,

Leslie Briggs 11:07

to deny the severity of it later on down the road, calling it a nosebleed.

Colleen McCarty 11:11

But if you ask them, why wasn't this enough? I think they would tell you, it's because he kept doing it. And he kept hurting more people,

Leslie Briggs 11:21

right. And that's like, some of what Leigh Goodmark this, like her philosophy on this. And she's the law professor out of law school, she out of University of Maryland School of Law, University of Maryland, she's got that book Imperfect Victims. And a lot of her philosophy is the same as like what what Xavier and aurelius would say, of this idea that like, the criminal justice system,

Colleen McCarty 11:44

the carceral system doesn't serve up justice because it doesn't feel good. And it doesn't feel like enough. And it never feels like it's really over either. Like it continues to reopen the wound and reopen the wound. Every time a person gets out. Every time there's a parole hearing. Every time somebody asked to testify at something every time every court is it. Yeah. And it just keeps the pain alive in a way, which is not what true. Restoration looks like. Yeah,

Leslie Briggs 12:15

I think so. Yeah. When you when you really peel back on Christen, you know, you look at these two cases she had she had a civil case and a criminal case. And she was she got what we what lawyers as lawyers, I would say she got she got a guilty plea to the domestic violence case. And she got a money judgment for the negligence case. And so that's as good as it can get. Yeah, that's like double win. And the fact that it still doesn't feel like justice, because he continued to then go on and abuse other women, just for me, exemplifies why that system, it doesn't really serve the purpose, I think that we all expect it to.

Colleen McCarty 12:54

Yeah, but I mean, the question is, and what we've been posing all season is like what would have? This is something that I've heard from people who are more on the supporters of Jim camp that we've spoken to, it's like, what would ever be enough? What would ever be enough? You think that this person should go into prison for the rest of his natural born life?

Leslie Briggs 13:14

I mean, it for me, it's this bigger question of like, I'm still I'm not quite I haven't quite gotten to the point where legged mark is on this on this issue of like, I, I still believe that incarceration serves a function in society to sequester violent people away from nonviolent people. I mean, it's best, that's what that does. But there are so many degrees of harm. And we talk a lot about proportionality in our survivor justice work, and we have to ask ourselves, you know what, like, it's like trying to the same concept as putting $1 value on a body on a body part. You know what I mean? What personal injury attorneys do that all the time, it's like, how much? How much is a numb, useless pinky toe, you've had a slip and fall now your pinky toe is numb all the time? How much is that worth? It's uncomfortable and slightly annoying. It's so bizarre. How much is it? I can't talk about it. You can't talk. Five figures. I mean, it could be as little as 10,000 It could be

Colleen McCarty 14:22

okay, but like, Ah, I don't know, there's like so little value to pinky toe. But I would be so upset if I didn't have

Leslie Briggs 14:34

come on. So, but it's the same concept of like, this idea of like, okay, well, it was the song battery, your face in the gravel. It's like our system of justice. And that sounds probably maybe like a little insensitive when people hear you but it's like our system of justice. Basically, does this transaction, it's transactional. It's, it's supposed to be proportional. And so

Colleen McCarty 14:58

well, this is something that I I've been thinking About a lot of something that we've done with this system with the, quote, criminal justice system that I don't think is necessarily correct is we've taken this idea of like, religious justice. And if you read back in jurisprudence from like the 1800s, or the 1700s, like the judges will acknowledge that there's a moral sense of justice, whatever you want to call it, religious justice, moral justice, karmic justice, whatever you want to call it, that exists separate from our manmade system, our manmade system is full of flaws and is full of people. And it can only deliver this transactional type of outcome. That is never going to feel like karmic justice probably to either side. It's like it's this. It's this in between thing that we've come up with, that's better than people going out and stabbing each other in the street, when they don't agree with something is much better than

Leslie Briggs 15:55

better that yeah, it's better than bashing each other with rocks. But it's

Colleen McCarty 15:58

not meant to be and it's not intended to be healing, healing, or take the place of moral justice, you have to do your own personal work with yourself or your priest, or your therapist, or your meditation or whatever, to get to a place where you can forgive somebody. Yeah. And a lot of people will tell you, if you continue to carry this around, it hurts you a lot more than it hurts the other person.

Leslie Briggs 16:30

That's true. I mean, that's true. And as somebody who holds lots of grudges, I am torture, it's heavy. I'm constantly tortured. The weight of these grudges. No, I mean, but like, honestly, when I like, you know, I'm a grudge prone human, you know, me too. But it has an effect on me mentally. And I'm cognizant of that. And I've done a lot of work, done a lot of self work to try and not be that grudge prone person. But I also I have never been beaten by an intimate partner I have, I can imagine it, I can try to empathize with it. But I really don't know the reality of that existence.

Colleen McCarty 17:09

I think he, I don't know what it would take to like, come to a place where you can let it go. I don't know if the system even plays any part in that. If it plays any. Imagine all the people that are like, victims of domestic partner violence, and they walk away, and they never prosecute. And they never want it to be in the record. And they never, it's so many. All they want to do is just get safe and be away and have it be over. And they never seek any type of formal justice, like criminal justice, whatever that means.

Leslie Briggs 17:39

Well, and I would say like we have some of those cases in this story. And that, to me, has been the most unfair, I feel the most for those people who felt that after their relationship with Jim, they just simply couldn't do anything about it, but leave it behind them. You do I feel like they're the

Colleen McCarty 17:59

most free. God? Well, we have done such a disservice to humans to conflate this stupid dumbass system, with our internal workings of justice inside of our psyches in our hearts, God damn preach Sr. It's just not the same thing. They'll never be the same. They'll never be the same. You could get civil justice and criminal justice, you can get a verdict, you can get a plea. And you'll still feel broken inside because that person committed a harm against you.

Leslie Briggs 18:35

Right. And that is why I think I do hope that like the conversation with a really aurelius, Xavier, and the TPD detective Amy Hall, and ADA. Ashley Nix. I mean, I really hope that like when you look at all of those different perspectives that you can see the value in the restorative justice approach, because it is aimed at healing the harm the underlying harm and the root cause of the violence. The reason I feel for the people who didn't do anything is that I'm making an assumption that that's a cross they bear...