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On this show, we challenge dangerous teachings found in various strands of Christianity while also taking seriously Jesus’s own teachings that lead us into dangerous places. Hosted by Brian Kaylor, president & editor-in-chief of Word&Way.
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Good Enough

Andrea Burke

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Influencers aplenty, memes a dime a dozen, self-help books lining the shelves of bookstores, and YouTube tutorials for every tip under the sun and it’s still never enough. Why do the messages like “You're the hero of your story” and “Trust yourself” still lead to anxiety, fear, uncertainty, and despair for most women? Andrea Burke will sit down with a different guest each week to discuss things like mental health, beauty, women in the church, "toxic" relationships, Instagram influencers, and ...
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Though birding seems like a whimsical hobby, birders can be surprisingly competitive. Bridget Butler seeks to bring mindfulness, peace, and gentle attention into the world of birds and birding. Her slow birding guiding practice, Bird Diva, brings people out into nature for focused time communing with the birds and one another. “I just wanted to sto…
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Journalist and author Bekah McNeel talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her new book This Is Going to Hurt: Following Jesus in a Divided America. She also discusses addressing issues of immigration, education, and guns. She previously appeared on episode 70. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witn…
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Michael Austin, a philosophy professor at Eastern Kentucky University and Bonhoeffer Senior Fellow of the Miller Center for Interreligious Learning and Leadership of Hebrew College, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book American Christian Nationalism: Neither American nor Christian. He also discusses American values, teachin…
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Ben Lowe is the executive director for A Roche, a Christian organization dedicated to the practice of creation care. Part of its mission is to help people rejoice in the beauty, diversity, and complexity of the natural world, and (get this!) commit to delighting in and treasuring God’s good creation. Delighting in creation. What a wonderful, import…
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Jerome Copulsky, a research fellow at the Berkley Center for Religion, Peace, and World Affairs at Georgetown University, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book American Heretics: Religious Adversaries of Liberal Order. He also discusses colonial Anglicans, debates during the Confederacy, and Christian Nationalism. Note: Don'…
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Amanda Tyler of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her forthcoming book How to End Christian Nationalism. She also discusses the Christians Against Christian Nationalism effort, issues involving public education, and different ways to engage in the public square. She previously appeare…
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Author of Falling for the Birds of Rwanda and the soon to be released Following the Birds of Rwanda, Will Wilson didn’t start out as a birder. From age 18 until his early 40s, he served in the British military. How did he make the change from military life to a contemplative birding practice in the cities and wilds of Rwanda? Therein lies the tale.…
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Blake Chastain, author of The Post-Evangelical Post, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back. He also discusses racism, consumerism, and Donald Trump. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public …
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Lore Ferguson Wilbert talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her new book The Understory: An Invitation to Rootedness and Resilience from the Forest Floor. She also discusses issues of grief, COVID-19, and hope. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, …
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New York Times bestselling author Leigh Ann Henion believes we can learn a lot when the lights go out. From lightning bugs to salamanders, owls to bats, a whole world opens up after dark. Join us as we talk about our shared human need for darkness and why certain things flourish in less-seen times and places. Plus, check out Leigh Ann’s beautiful b…
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Darryl Stephens, director of United Methodist Studies at Lancaster Theological Seminary, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his book Reckoning Methodism: Mission and Division in the Public Church. He also discusses issues of sexuality, colonialism, and public advocacy. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter …
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Julie Faith Parker, a visiting scholar at Union Theological Seminary and a biblical scholar in residence at Marble Collegiate Church, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her book Eve Isn't Evil: Feminist Readings of the Bible to Upend Our Assumptions. She also discusses translation problems, the role of the matriarchs, and female proph…
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Mark Robertson teaches high school English in San Juan Capistrano, California, a city also known as the spiritual home of the famous cliff swallows. It is from this perch (ha! see what we did there?) that he delves into the world of birds, birding photography, and all things literature. Friends, I enjoyed my conversation with Mark so very much. His…
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Matthew Taylor, a scholar with the Institute for Islamic-Christian-Jewish Studies, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his forthcoming book The Violent Take it By Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy. He also discusses the New Apostolic Reformation, election prophecies, and the Jan. 6 insurrection. Note: Don'…
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Jason Shelton, a sociology professor at the University of Texas at Arlington, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book The Contemporary Black Church: The New Dynamics of African American Religion. He also discusses impacts of the civil rights movement, racial injustices, and the COVID-19 pandemic on church life. Note: Don't for…
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Author, speaker, and professor of communication Quentin Schultze grew up in rough circumstances. The child of an alcoholic father who died young and a schizophrenic mother, one of the few things he found solace and connection in was studying robins with his mother. Decades later, he birds with his wife Barbara in the woods of Western Michigan and b…
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Joel Looper talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his forthcoming book Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity. He also discusses messianic and apocalyptic rhetoric in Trumpism. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, cultu…
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Tripp Fuller of Homebrewed Christianity talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about podcasting, community, and speaking out in public. He also talks about Theology Beer Camp on Oct. 17-19 in Denver. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, and politics. And …
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Trauma therapist , birder, and author of My Summer with Ospreys, Pamela Lowell believes that hope is a great motivator. From her decades of work with people dealing with immense suffering, she’s found that nature can be an incredible balm. But when her enjoyment of birds in the marsh behind her home was drowned out by the sound of chainsaws, it tur…
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Tony Jones, a theologian and author, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book The God of Wild Places: Rediscovering the Divine in the Untamed Outdoors. He also discusses hunting, death, and ministry. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, a…
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Thomas Jay Oord, a theologian and author, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about being disciplined by the Church of the Nazarene, which resulted in him losing his preaching credentials and being expelled from membership. He also discusses the church trial process, his defense of affirming LGBTQ+ people, and open and relational theology. L…
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Lore Ferguson Wilbert shares with us about her new book The Understory: An Invitation to Rootedness and Resilience from the Forest Floor. Together we talk grief, hope, the birds of the understory, and how sometimes it is when it seems that all hope is lost that God shows up. Links from Lore's show: Lore's book - The Understory Lore on Substack Lore…
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Jenai Auman, a writer and artist, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her new book Othered: Finding Belonging with the God Who Pursues the Hurt, Harmed, and Marginalized. She also discusses church trauma, the importance of lament, and misuse of Scripture. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witnes…
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Together we walk through Trish O'Kane's beautiful new book, Birding to Change the World, including the New Orleans disaster story that first led her into birding. Join us for this episode of The Thing with Feathers as Trish, author and senior lecturer in environmental justice at the University of Vermont, illuminates ways we might make a difference…
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Ross Kane, a professor of theology, ethics, and culture at Virginia Theological Seminary, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book The Good News of Church Politics. He also discusses local engagement, the biblical word for the church, and the importance of repentance and forgiveness. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award…
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Trauma-informed Certified Grief Educator Mandy Capehart knows a thing or two about sorrow. Her first deep dive into grief came with the surprising and rapid decline of her mother in 2016. From there, she began learning all she could about how we grieve and what might help us heal. Links from Mandy's show: Restorative Grief (Mandy's website) The Res…
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Andrew Garnett, pastor Hampton Baptist Church in Virginia, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his book Christians and the Roman Army: Lessons for Today. He also discusses the impact of the rise of Constantine, differences between leaders and congregants, and Fourth of July services. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning…
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Caleb Campbell, pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his forthcoming book Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. He also discusses Turning Point USA, syncretism, and missionary strategies. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Publi…
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Julie Zickefoose is one of those birding writers I’ve admired from afar for a long time. When I first got into birds during that miserable pandemic, her book, “Saving Jemima” was one of the first bird-related titles I picked up at our library. I was captivated. Who knew little birds could have such big personalities? Who knew how much creativity an…
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Shirley Mullen, retired president of Houghton College (now University), talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her new book Claiming the Courageous Middle: Daring to Live and Work Together for a More Hopeful Future. She also discusses liberal arts education, listening to others, and embracing middle spaces. Note: Don't forget to subscribe…
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This episode features the audio from an online book launch for Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism. Co-authors Brian Kaylor and Beau Underwood hosted a panel conversation with Dr. Diana Butler Bass, Rev. Adriene Thorne, and Dr. Andrew Whitehead on Christian Nationalism and mainline Protestants. Bass, who w…
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Gardening is for the birds! But wait... can gardening actually be FOR the birds? Today we're joined by Jenn McGuinness, author of Bird-Friendly Gardening, to learn all about creating beautiful outdoor spaces that can bless our feathered friends. Links from Jenn's show: Jenn's blog Jenn (Frau Zinnie) on Instagram Jenn (Frau Zinnie) on Facebook Birdi…
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Director of Conservation for the Audubon Upper Mississippi River, Dale Gentry believes there are lots of reasons to be hopeful. From new initiatives caring for the forests lining the Mississippi to bird-friendly grass-fed beef, join us as we learn more about what the Audubon is doing to care for creation. Plus: we spend some time renaming the birds…
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Avian biologist Emma Rhodes joins us to talk about all things migration, the joy of bird-banding, why American Redstarts are the perfect Halloween bird, and how to manage a huge group of volunteers. Links from Emma's show: Banding Coalition of the Americas Emma on Twitter Emma on Facebook Banding Coalition on Facebook Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠M…
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Scott Coley, a lecturer in philosophy at Mount St. Mary's University, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his forthcoming book Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power, and the Ideology of the Religious Right. He also discusses the rhetoric of complementarianism, creation science, and Al Mohler. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our awar…
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Joe Ingle talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book Too Close to the Flame: With the Condemned inside the Southern Killing Machine. He also discusses meeting with politicians and his memories of Will Campbell. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, c…
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Grace Ji-Sun Kim and Susan Shaw talk with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about their new book Surviving God: A New Vision of God through the Eyes of Sexual Abuse Survivors. They also talk about considering new metaphors for God, reading biblical stories of survivors, and the importance of still finding joy. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our a…
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Author, editor, and vulture aficionado Josina Guess joins us this week to talk vultures, sisterhood, and how pressing into the natural world can ground our hearts, minds, and souls. Links from Josina's show: Josina's website Vultures (Josina's essay in Image Journal) Vulture Sister Song Sojourners Magazine Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird I…
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Elizabeth Neumann talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her new book Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace. She also discusses terrorism and 9/11, working in the Trump administration, and how to reach those who have been radicalized. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A…
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Founder of Ornitheology, pastor Kevin Burrell believes God has written reminders of his love and care all over the cosmos. From the call of a chickadee to the Scriptural reminders not to fear, this episode is a tour of beauty, goodness, and birds. Links from Kevin's show: Ornitheology Kevin on Twitter --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters…
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Aimee Byrd talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her forthcoming book The Hope in Our Scars: Finding the Bride of Christ in the Underground of Disillusionment. She also discusses addressing misogyny and patriarchy in church life. She writes a Substack newsletter. More information about the book, including a video series, can be found at …
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Bestselling author Amy Tan gives us a tour of her new book, The Backyard Bird Chronicles and describes why, even when we're sitting at home, birds can help us feel free. Links from Amy's show: The Backyard Bird Chronicles Amy's website Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird ID⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e-Bird⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The Thing With Fea…
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Christa Brown talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about her forthcoming book Baptistland: A Memoir of Abuse, Betrayal, and Transformation. She also discusses advocacy for survivors of clergy sexual abuse, family estrangement, and when denominational leaders do not care. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Publ…
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Presbyterian pastor Roy Howard is spending his retirement with and for the birds. From Peregrin Falcons to the birds of Ecuador to Gerard Manley Hopkins, Roy takes us on a delightful birding journey. Links from Roy's show: Gerard Manley Hopkins poem Mary Oliver poem Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird ID⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e-Bird⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠…
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Trey Ferguson, a minister and writer, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his new book Theologizin' Bigger: Homilies on Living Freely and Loving Wholly. He also discusses biblical interpretation, inerrancy, and Black Panther. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of…
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SUNY Oswego Assistant Professor and Provost Dan Baldassarre brings us his wisdom on bird banding, the joy of teaching undergrads, Harpy Eagles, and which birds are the most badass. Links from Dan's show: ⁠Dan's faculty profile Dan on Twitter Harpy Eagle Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird ID⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e-Bird⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The …
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Derek Kubilus, a Methodist pastor in Ohio, talks with Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about his book Holy Hell: A Case against Eternal Damnation. He also discusses translation issues, Wesleyan teachings, and Star Wars. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, and…
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Madison resident Mary Gemignani spends her free time with Sandhill Cranes. Today we learn all about these leggy, gentle giants from a photographer who sees them through a lens of love. Links from Mary's show: Mary on Twitter International Crane Foundation Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird ID⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠e-Bird⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow The Th…
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Angela Denker, a journalist and Lutheran minister, moderates a discussion with Jim Wallis of the Georgetown Center on Faith and Justice and Word&Way President Brian Kaylor about Christian Nationalism and other issues of faith and politics. A written version of this conversation was previously published at A Public Witness. Denker, author of Red Sta…
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Ted Floyd has edited Birding Magazine for decades. He holds the longest consecutive birding streak in eBird and believes in the revitalizing power of getting out into nature daily. Plus: learn why Bushtits are so dang cool. Links from Ted's show: How to Know the Birds Birding Magazine The ABA Podcast Birding links: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Merlin Bird ID⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠…
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